Episode 4: Celebrating culture, language & Children’s Day on Gumbaynggirr Country with Aunty Julie Carey and Clark Webb | Kids, Culture, Community

Episode Description

In this episode of Kids, Culture, Community – SNAICC Yarns, SNAICC CEO Catherine Liddle is on Gumbaynggirr Country on location at Kulai Preschool, where the community has gathered to celebrate National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children’s Day on 4 August.

Catherine sits down with Gumbaynggirr and Bundjalung woman Aunty Julie Carey, who has been the Director of Kulai Preschool for over 30 years, and Gumbaynggirr man Clark Webb, CEO of Gumbaynggirr Giingana Freedom School, New South Wales’ first bilingual Aboriginal language school.

Together they yarn about what Children’s Day means to the Gumbaynggirr community, as well as why culturally safe education and language revival are essential to supporting children to thrive. They discuss Kulai Preschool’s history and current impact, which has been a cornerstone of the Gumbaynggirr community since 1962. Clark describes the Freedom School’s journey since its inception in 2022, as well as their shared vision of what lifelong culturally safe education looks like for the community.

The three also discuss the challenges and opportunities of embedding language, culture and listening into learning while navigating Western education benchmarks, and how both Kulai and the Freedom School adapt by letting the children guide the way. They share stories of community unity, intergenerational leadership and the incredible resilience of Aboriginal-led services in shaping confident, culturally proud young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Keep the conversation going—follow and share this podcast episode to amplify the voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, families, and communities.

This artwork was created to visually represent Kids, Culture, Community – SNAICC Yarns, a podcast by SNAICC – National Voice for our Children, dedicated to amplifying the voices and experiences of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, families, and communities.

At the heart of the artwork is a central motif drawn directly from the SNAICC Marulu design – a symbolic anchor that represents SNAICC’s identity, purpose, and vision. This central element grounds the piece, reflecting SNAICC’s leadership in advocating for the rights, wellbeing, and futures of our children.

Surrounding this are three figures, symbolising a community in conversation. These figures represent not only the act of yarning, but the diversity of voices – children, families, Elders, leaders, and community members – who will be heard through the podcast. The figures are encircled by layered soundwaves that ripple outward and inward, capturing both the expression of voice and the act of deep listening.

These soundwaves reflect how stories, knowledge, and lived experiences are shared, received, and echoed across communities – from grassroots voices to national conversations. The design intentionally shows sound as both something that travels outward to inform and inspire, and something that returns inward to strengthen identity, connection, and culture.

Content Warning: SNAICC advises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people that this episode of Kids, Culture, Community – SNAICC Yarns contains references to topics that may be triggering to the community. Your social and emotional safety is important. If this recording has brought up any concerns or issues for you, please contact 13YARN on 13 92 76

Catherine:

Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of Kids, Culture, Community – SNAICC Yarns.

My name is Catherine Liddle, and I’m your host for this episode.

Today we’re coming to you from Gumbaynggirr Country, on location at Kulai Preschool, where community has gathered to celebrate National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children’s Day.

This Children’s Day, we are honouring the journeys our children take as they grow – each step guided by culture, community, and connection to Country.

For this episode, we’re yarning with Gumbaynggirr and Bundjalung woman Aunty Julie Carey, Director of Kulai Preschool Aboriginal Corporation, and Gumbaynggirr man Clark Webb, who is the CEO of the Gumbaynggirr Giingana Freedom School.

Together, we’ll yarn about what Children’s Day means here on Gumbaynggirr Country, and what’s possible when our children grow strong in culture, proud in identity, and supported by their awesome community.

We’ve also had the announcement this morning of Australia’s first National Commissioner for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children – Wurundjeri woman Sue-Anne Hunter – an incredible and historic day for this remarkable celebration.

Kulai Preschool has been a cornerstone of the Gumbaynggirr community since 1962, delivering culturally strong early education grounded in Gumbaynggirr culture and led by Aboriginal people. The preschool has supported generations of children to grow up strong in culture, connected community, and ready to thrive.

Gumbaynggirr and Bundjalung woman Julie Carey is the Director of Kulai Preschool Aboriginal Corporation in Coffs Harbour, and she’s been with the service for more than 30 years – since 1995.

Gumbaynggirr Giingana Freedom School is the first bilingual Aboriginal language school in New South Wales, and it opened in 2022.

It’s just awesome to have you both with us, so thank you very much for joining us.

We’ve got a couple of questions for you both, and I’m going to start with a hard one. Aunty Julie, I’ll start with you – who made the seafood chowder?

Julie Carey:
Oh, the seafood chowder? Yes, that was lovely. We had a friend who used to be a seafood chef in Sydney and up on Great Keppel Island for a few years. He’s semi-retired now in Port Macquarie. When I rang him and asked for the recipe, he offered to make it and brought it up on Saturday afternoon, for us – delivered!

Catherine:
Ah, lovely. For those of you who missed out, we had seafood chowder as part of our celebrations today. It was the first thing to go, and I did get to taste it – it was awesome. I can see why it was a gift.

So, 65 years – that’s a long time to be running a preschool. What does it mean to have something so old and so precious to your community?

Julie Carey:
There are really no words to describe it, because we’ve never known anything else – it’s just ingrained. The passion that the community has, and the support for our children, is amazing. It’s been wonderful to be part of those relationships over the decades, and to have those connections to our community and with new people coming into Gumbaynggirr Country who are so well loved and accepted – and who also make great contributions to the preschool.

Catherine:
Now, Clark, did I hear you say you came here when you were young?

Clark Webb:
Yes, yep – I’m a student of Kulai as well.

Catherine:
Wow. What was that like? What do you remember about it? And what’s it like to come back?

Clark Webb:
It’s pretty amazing. One of my earliest memories is being on the Kulai bus. One of our Aunties, Aunty Jenny, was driving at the time. Here in Coffs Harbour, we’ve got Cross Creek, where during a king tide the road floods. One of my earliest memories is the Kulai bus going through the tide – I’m sure Aunty Jenny was the driver. She’s still heavily involved with all of us in the education of our children, which is really special.

We’ve got that intergenerational connection – people like Troy, who led the smoking ceremony today, are also former students here. Kulai is a cornerstone of our community and has a way of drawing us all back together.

Catherine:
And the Giingana Freedom School has been around since 2022, and you’re the driver. Tell us about that.

Clark Webb:
It’s been an amazing time since we opened. We wanted to base the learning of our children on our cultural values. The idea really started around 2015, when we had an Arapaho man named Neyooxet come over from America. He’d developed a method of teaching language through accelerated second language acquisition, which is really successful. He came to deliver that model so we could teach in community and here at Kulai.

He talked about immersion schools he’d seen around the world, and how that’s what we should aspire to. We worked in partnership with Kulai for years, and eventually opened the school in 2022.

One of the first things Aunty Julie said was that we need to teach our children how to listen – because that’s such an important cultural perspective. We’ve really tried to embed that in our learning.

Catherine:
I did a quick visit to the school yesterday, even though there were no children there at the time, and like Kulai, it’s just so special. You see Aboriginal culture everywhere. I know these constructs that we’re in are colonial in essence, but what you’re doing is a kind of decolonisation of those spaces. You see language embedded everywhere, patterns that are more circular, spaces open to the fireplace learning areas for community to come together.

Bouncing off what you were saying, one of the things I saw on the wall was: “Listen to your Elders”. That’s such an incredible way to centre learning – it’s exactly what we say. So, when we talk about children needing to listen, in today’s world – which isn’t built for Aboriginal children – what’s the biggest challenge in helping children be still? Either of you – what’s the biggest challenge?

Clark Webb:
I’ll speak from our school’s perspective. We have to get our school registered through the New South Wales Education Standards Authority, and one of the challenges is needing to show evidence that we’re teaching the curriculum and meeting key learning area outcomes.

Sometimes teachers feel the pressure of having to hit all these benchmarks and provide evidence that we’ve met them, which can take away from the time we need to teach our children to listen. It can feel like we don’t have the time for it, even though it’s so important.

Catherine:
And you’ve got to make little ones sit still – how do you do that?

Julie Carey:
We really stay with where they’re at. Our program is designed around the children – not the children designed around us. Everything is tailored to their needs.

We lead, but we let the children guide. We have boundaries, but they’re established over time. We give the children the respect of a voice, and then they respect our voice. It’s a two-way thing – respect, listening, guiding, walking with them, and working around them.

Catherine:
I know culture is central to both of your organisations. In those early years. Aunty Julie, what does it look like when we say we want our children to know who they are and be surrounded by culture in an environment like this?

Julie Carey:
It’s a very relationship-based way of working with children – knowing their families and having the children see through us. They can tell if we’re confident, passionate, and truly listening to them.

It’s about being in tune with each child individually, knowing where they’re at – and you can only do that if you have a good relationship with them. That’s the number one key.

One of the challenges is that in the quality areas for early childhood services, the number one focus is the educational program – but for us, relationship is number one.

Catherine:
That’s a really good point. I hear it from Aboriginal educators and services right across the country – these domains that measure our children are often looking in the wrong place for what quality looks like for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, particularly when what you’re trying to do is establish the foundations for someone who can thrive.

When you were here, Clark, I know you’ve talked about that incredible story of the bus and those early memories. What was it like to grow up in a place where you could call everyone Aunty? Not everyone gets that lucky.

Clark Webb:
It must have been special – and I think about that when I look at our children now. How lucky they are to have their Aunties, Uncles, and sometimes Nan and Pop guiding their education. It’s pretty special, and I think we’re blessed in that way.

I don’t remember too much from my transition to primary school, but it must have been a big step to go from a family and culturally centred place to a mainstream school where I was the only Aboriginal student – in a school of about 100.

Julie Carey:
Because we’ve worked together for such a long time – the preschool team across generations – I think that makes a huge difference. Everybody here shares the same values.

I grew up in a very nurturing environment, in a big family where my older siblings taught me and cared for me. That was their responsibility, and I did the same for my younger siblings and cousins. It was such a wonderful feeling to be loved and cared for – we always knew that we were.

I think the majority of the team here, over the years, have had the same experiences, and we all share similar values – or the same values.

Catherine:
Do you have those values written down, or are they just something you know?

Julie Carey:
I think it’s just something you know – something you feel. And yes, I think we get so much back from children as well. We learn a lot working with children when they guide you.

Sometimes they amaze you. If you step back – when you’re in tune and you know when to step back – you can see how they help and support each other. You understand how they learn, their learning styles, their personalities, and how they grow. You can see their strengths too. You’ve just got to stand back and let them shine.

Catherine:
Like your school, Clark – with its really clever two-way learning. What do your values look like? Do you call them values, or is it something else? Is it different? Because a lot of this, we know inherently – and Aunty Julie spoke to it – but ‘values’ is a Western word. How do you mob pass that on?

Clark Webb:
When we first opened, our board – and Aunty Julie was a big part of the establishment through her directorship – decided on three pillars: Country, Culture, and Wisdom.

We wanted our children to know their Country and culture through language, and we chose the word wisdom over words like ‘smart’. We wanted to draw on the wisdom of our culture and our Elders. That way, when it comes to real-world problems like climate change, our children can become the people leading the solutions one day.

We try to embed these values – for lack of a better word – through the whole system. Another big one, which our board was really strong on from the start, was the happiness of our children. Happiness isn’t valued enough in the mainstream, but we want our children to be happy.

Catherine:
Speaking of happy, what does it mean to the community to have a school that says, we’re going to give you back your language – and not just a bit of it – but you’re going to grow up knowing nothing else? I hope that’s a positive thing.

Julie Carey:
It’s a really positive thing. I’ve had conversations with people – physiotherapists and OTs – who’ve worked with students from the Freedom School. They didn’t know I was connected to it, but they’ve told me how they’ve worked with children who were struggling in state schools, and then they’ve seen a light switch on once they started at the Freedom School.

That’s just great news – to hear how well children are doing in an environment that values their culture and provides a strong sense of belonging, as well as respect for Country, for each other, and for everything around them.

Catherine:
I wonder – this is just me being curious as another Aboriginal person – we used to think Alice Springs was a small town, but it’s not so small anymore. Once upon a time, we knew who everybody was. As families have grown, I don’t think we know everyone anymore in my home environment.

Do you find you have similar challenges here? And do things like Kulai and the Freedom School help with that sense of community unity – knowing who your family is, knowing your structures?

Clark Webb:
Yeah, 100%. That’s such an important part of what both of our organisations do – knowing who our community is, knowing family connections and how families are related, understanding kinship structures.

That’s the opportunity we have by working this way. When I was in high school – again, one of very few Aboriginal kids – one of our Elders said to me, “That’s your family there.” But because we didn’t have the opportunity to always be told and reminded how we’re connected, that knowledge could be lost.

Aunty Julie:
Yeah – that’s really important, knowing how you’re connected and where you’re connected. And it’s lovely, too, when we have new families come in. Most of the time, someone has a connection to their Country – maybe a parent at the school or preschool, or one of the staff, teachers, or educators. There’s always a way to make that connection, and that’s what I love about it.

I think because we’ve done it over generations, it just comes naturally. That’s how we connect – through family, knowing who you are, where you come from, and identifying with your Country. It’s in your language.

Catherine Liddle:

That connection piece – I reckon I’ve heard, Clark (and you can correct me if I’m wrong) – that the children in the Freedom School, the ones who’ve come from Kulai into the school and been there the longest, seem to have an easier time with those really important transitions – like preschool to school, or primary school to high school. Did I imagine that, or have I heard that story before?

Clark Webb:
No, I think you’ve heard it. I think it might have been my dad who spoke about it when we had a meeting with you.

Catherine:
That one where it was just me and, like, 30 of you mob in the room!

Clark Webb:
We do see that slight difference. Children who haven’t had the opportunity to come straight from Kulai into our primary school – if they’ve gone to a state school for a few years first – there’s a noticeable difference in confidence.

I don’t want to be overly critical, but I think a lot of schools try to be culturally sound and fall short. What that does to our children can be really detrimental to their confidence and self-esteem. That’s what we’re seeing – kids coming straight through from Kulai tend to have stronger self-esteem and a greater sense of who they are.

Catherine:
Well, one of our key advocacy pieces is that children need to be connected to their language, community, culture, and kin.

From a SNAICC perspective – and based on all the evidence from incredible educators like you – we know our children who have that connection are strong enough to walk into, well… there’s no other way to describe it – colonised environments.

Those are the places where, for the first time, you might be alone. Your family isn’t there to tell you it’s going to be okay. It’s a strange environment for First Nations children, where everything about the way Australians live today was built on top of our law systems and our ways of being, knowing, and doing.

And our kids deserve no less than the very best – like you’ve got with your two-way learning. That’s what we’d call it in my Country – two-way learning. How does it work? How do you have teachers do both?

Clark Webb:
When we first started the school, each classroom had a classroom teacher and a language teacher. That way, language was embedded in everything we did.

We’re now looking at moving towards an immersion model of education; our kindergarten children will be immersed in culture every day – and we’ll trust that all the academic, Western curriculum outcomes are met through culture, just in more holistic and connected ways.

Our teachers and language teachers have done a great job over the years – improving their own language skills and passing that on to our children. The immersion model will just take that to the next level from 2027.

Catherine:
Speaking of that – when I was visiting your school yesterday, I noticed a lot of pictures. And I’m someone who speaks in vision – I think in pictures and images. It’s how I understand complex systems, and it’s how I was taught to understand the world. My whole family talks that way. Was all that imagery deliberate?

Clark Webb:
Yep – I think what you saw was deliberate.

That’s from Dr. Neha Gray Morning’s model of teaching language. He based it on how a baby learns their first language – starting with what you see, then what you hear, then what you respond to, and then speaking.

That’s what you saw on the wall. And the children you’re thinking of have actually moved past that stage now – it’s too easy for them in our language. So we have to keep pushing forward. Like we said earlier, the children guide us, so we have to keep up with them, or better yet, stay just ahead of them.

Catherine:
What an awesome challenge to have! And Aunty Julie, you talked about that earlier – children guiding the way you respond to them. What are your hopes and visions for Kulai? You’ve got more than 60 years behind you. What about the next 60?

Aunty Julie:
I’m hoping a lot of our children coming through now will be at universities – maybe even a university here, a college, a boarding school. And I want our people in those spaces with a wide range of skills – whether that’s language, art, academia.

My big hope is for a whole community of teachers, leaders, and skilled people coming through now who will lead the way for the next generations.

Catherine:
What about you, Clark? What’s next for the Freedom School?

Clark Webb:
Probably the same as what Aunty Julie said. When we first talked about opening the school, we went to one of our senior Elders, Aunty Bea Ballangarry, and said, “We’re really keen to open this school. What do you think?” She said, “What a great idea – but you’re thinking too small.”

Catherine:
(Laughs) Sounds like my board.

Clark Webb:
Exactly. She said, “You need to do a university as well.” So that’s part of our vision – lifelong learning and creating our own circular economy, where children go from Kulai, into our school, into our own universities, and then come back to educate the next generations.

Catherine:
What an incredible vision. And again, that circles right back to what we were talking about earlier.

Now, Aunty Julie – one of the things we haven’t talked about much yet, but I’m very excited about, is Otis Hope Carey – your son, and our ambassador for Children’s Day today. I tell you what – that’s a coup! Thank you very much. We know we had an inside line there.

What’s that like – to have a son who’s been so successful, obviously a product of the environment you’re describing – but also to see him standing up for children in this way?

Aunty Julie:
I’m so proud of Otis. And really, it’s a reflection of the community and his family – and of other people he’s looked up to, like Clark and other strong role models in the community.

I’m very proud that he, like Clark, Troy, and others, gives back to the community in ways that are meaningful and have a real impact. It lifts the whole community. And it’s great to see them all together – leading and supporting the community and the next generations.

Catherine:
Before we kicked off today, we were talking about how lovely it’s been here – and then another service came along as well.

Aunty Julie:
Gummyaney Aboriginal Pre School

Catherine:
How awesome was that? What did it feel like?

From my perspective, just visiting, wow is all I can say. And I’m sorry to all of you listening – you didn’t get to see it, or to taste the seafood chowder, the ice cream, the coffee… oh, and the damper. I know I’m joking about the food, but come on – everyone knows you’ve got to have good food.

Aside from that though – what does it feel like when you see your community come together at scale like that?

Aunty Julie:
It’s just so amazing. It’s actually hard to describe, because everyone just knows how to do it – and when to do it. It’s incredible. All the effort over time comes to fruition on days like this. And it doesn’t even feel like hard work – it just happens naturally.

Clark Webb:
Yeah, I’d probably say the same. Aunty Jenny Skinner always says, “Go with the flow you fellas,” and that’s pretty much what we did today. We didn’t put time restrictions on anything, we just went with it – and it turned out beautifully.

And like Aunty Julie said before – the children guide what’s happening. We saw that today too.

Catherine:
And the face painting – I forgot to mention that!

Before we wrap up – because I know I’ve had you to myself for quite a while now – is there anything I should have asked you, or anything you’re dying to tell us about?

Clark Webb:
Maybe just one thing. When we first started our school, there was this fear that a bilingual education would hold our kids back in literacy and numeracy. That fear’s starting to fade now, but the big thing to understand is that English isn’t a prerequisite for learning, or for literacy, or for numeracy.

If we hold our culture in the highest regard – and really trust that it contains everything our children need for any part of life – they’ll be fine. In fact, when people say, “Oh, but they need to navigate the outside world, the colonial spaces,” my answer is – they’ll do it better than we have. Because they’ll walk into those spaces with so much more pride from a culturally centred education, and they’ll change those spaces for the better.

Aunty Julie:
And I guess for me – like Clark’s saying – I do worry about some of our children. Sometimes we get mainstream services ringing us, referring our kids for medication. I’m not against medication, but often it’s not the child that’s the problem – it’s that they haven’t been given a sense of belonging.

They might act out because they’re not being listened to, or they don’t feel safe enough to speak. And that’s the most important thing – that they have a voice, and that they’re allowed to be themselves.

Catherine:
Thank you for creating those incredible places of safety for our children, where their voices can be heard – and more importantly, listened to.

It’s been an absolute pleasure to sit in the room with you today. Thank you so much for inviting us to join you for National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children’s Day. It’s been an incredible day – and one I’ll remember.

Aunty Julie & Clark:
Thank you.